Ramblings: Below-average analytics, Radim Vrbata, Timo Meier, Chris Kreider and more (July 19)
Neil Parker
2016-07-19
Below-average analytics, Radim Vrbata, Timo Meier, Chris Kreider and what's next for Ottawa and New York?
Shea Weber is an "average NHLer," according to Matt Pfeffer's analytics. No wonder he was fired, and his opinion in the P.K. Subban-Weber deal didn't influence the Montreal front office.
I'm all for incorporating analytics, but the "eye test" is important, too. Anyone who has watched Weber's body of work over the past few seasons knows he's nearing the end of his prime, if he's not already past it, but Weber is certainly a slam-dunk, top-pairing defenseman. As in, Weber is a top-60 defenseman in the league, easily.
Without question.
And top-pairing defensemen aren't average.
Turning to Subban, he racked up two goals and 15 assists through 11 games against Toronto, Buffalo and Columbus last season. He scored 15 points through 25 games against the Western Conference.
Dobber touched on the difference between playing in the Central Division compared to the cushy Eastern Conference in the comments of an article/ramblings when the deal was first finalized. The disparity of those numbers falls somewhere between telling and interesting.
This isn't meant to be an attack on Pfeffer, Subban, analytics or Montreal, it's just my half-baked, off-the-cuff take after reading the above article.
It was easy to toss stones at the Canadiens for not renewing Pfeffer's contract, and casting Montreal as a backward organization. There was no benefit of doubt for Montreal initially, or at least, not in the Twitter bubble where I focus.
Now, though, it's pretty obvious why Pfeffer was canned. If you go to the front office and call a top-15 defenseman in the league an average NHLer, you're not going to be taken seriously. Let's give Pfeffer the benefit of the doubt, though, and return Weber to being a top-60 defenseman.
And it's still absurd.
Weber's far above average, and the fact Pfeffer is standing behind anything else is ridiculous. Good luck going forward, kid.
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Interestingly, Andrew Walker said the exact same thing during his show Monday. Nearly word for word, but I said it first here. Just so I don't come across as a copycat.
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It sounds like Radim Vrbata will sign a deal sooner than later. But how much should we care?
From 2009-10 through 2014-15, Vrbata scored 141 goals, which ranked 27th among all skaters, and in the company of Max Pacioretty, Marian Hossa and Patrick Sharp. Last year, though, he skidded to just 13 goals and 14 assists through 63 games, and he'll enter his age-35 season this fall.
Additionally, power-play production has been a key to Vrbata's success with 50 goals and 54 assists with the man advantage during the six-year span when he was an excellent contributor.
Among all skaters with 2500 minutes played at five-on-five during the stretch from '09-10 to '14-15, Vrbata's goals per 60 minutes at five-on-five ranked 93rd at a 0.77 mark. His points per 60 minutes was 1.75 at five-on-five, which ranked 119.
During the time timeframe, Vrbata ranked 38th in P/60 (4.74) and 16th in G/60 (2.22) with the man advantage.
Obviously, the landing spot will be incredibly important to Vrbata's fantasy success, but whether he receives top-unit looks with the man advantage will be most important. In the majority of settings, he's unlikely to carry much fantasy relevance as a supporting piece.
He's also unlikely to be cast as anything more, too.
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A changing of the guard is ahead for the Boston blue line, and the Bruins have nabbed a number of defenseman early in the past two drafts: Jakub Zboril (No. 15), Brandon Carlo (No. 37) and Jeremy Lauzon (No. 52) in 2015, and Charlie McAvoy (No. 14) and Ryan Lindgren (No. 49) in 2016.
"It's been an area of need that we wanted to address, something I identified in taking over that we hadn't drafted a lot of players in the top two rounds in previous drafts in the back end," general manager Don Sweeney said. "So it was an area we targeted."
Here's a link to the full article.
Finding the next Dougie Hamilton is a central theme of the article, which again stands to question why Hamilton was dealt in the first place.
However, with the Zdeno Chara, Torey Krug, Adam McQuaid, Kevan Miller and Colin Miller led defense corps, there doesn't project to be a solid group for some time. The 2015 and 2016 picks will need time to develop and some aren't going to turn into reliable NHlers.
Tuukka Rask's fantasy value is hanging by a thread.
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Timo Meier is a player to watch this fall. He's scored 221 points through 145 games the past two seasons in the QMJHL, including the playoffs, and has nothing left to prove at that level.
If San Jose looks to take a three-line attack and separate Tomas Hertl from Joe Thornton and Joe Pavelski, Meier is a candidate to stick with the duo on the No. 1 line. As long as Meier is utilized in a top-nine role, he'll approach 40 points as a rookie, which is rare.
San Jose should be a high-scoring club again, so Meier's value isn't tied to that top-line role. However, with even just half his time spent with Thornton and Pavelski, Meier could have a Nikolaj Ehler-like stretches for fantasy owners.
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This is a pretty solid read about Chris Kreider's contract situation, and the dynamics of committing long term or agreeing to a bridge deal. I was a big believer in Kreider in the past, but he doesn't appear to be capable of being a driving force offensively, and at 25, the best offensive years are nearing an end.
The biggest concern is still his lack of ice time, as he's averaged under 16 minutes in each of his first three full seasons. However, it's concerning that Kreider registered 22 fewer shots last year than during the 2014-15 campaign but still scored the same number of goals.
Maintaining a 13.3 shooting percentage is difficult, so unless Kreider ups his shot total, 25 goals could prove to be his ceiling. Through his first three seasons, his shooting percentage was 11.9.
There's still some potential for that 30-goal, 60-point breakout, but the probability is lowering given his age and lack of playing time. In salary cap leagues, Kreider owners should fear he signs a Jaden Schwartz-type contract because Kreider likely won't return value at a $5 million salary.
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Slava Voynov was removed from Team Russia for the World Cup of Hockey. Nikita Nesterov is replacing Voynov.
There obviously aren't significant fantasy implications here, but if you were holding out hope for a Voynov return to the NHL in a keeper/dynasty league, you're likely going to be disappointed.
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The big news from Monday was the Rangers-Senators deal with Derick Brassard and Mika Zibanejad swapping cities. Ian broke the deal down here. And there are about 11 threads of commentary on the deal in the forums.
Like Ian, and others, I don't see a lot of fantasy impact, but Zibanejad will have huge adjustments to make. Ottawa is a tame city and market compared to New York, so don't underestimate the potential for him to struggle acclimatizing, especially initially.
There was a lot of discussion about New York clearing some cap space with the deal, but Zibanejad is a restricted free agent at the end of next season, and he's looking at a deal in the range of Chris Kreider, Jaden Schwartz and Kyle Palmieri. So, did New York really just save money?
The Rangers certainly got younger, but Brassard is definitely the more complete player right now, and the time to win is now for New York. Yet, Ottawa isn't a contender, and now they've dealt a potential franchise cornerstone moving forward.
It's kind of a puzzler, unless you just look at it as two teams looking to shake it up.
Still, though, these are two bubble teams clearly behind Pittsburgh, Washington, Tampa Bay and Montreal in the Eastern Conference.
Here's my guess … New York makes another move, and Mike Hoffman is now inked long term. Why these dominos had to fall first could be clearer down the line, maybe.
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Sens 2011 draft was supposed to be backbone of rebuild:
Zibanejad – traded
Noesen – traded
Puempel – On two-way contract.
Prince – traded— Ian Mendes (@ian_mendes) July 18, 2016
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Be well, Dobberheads.
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Pfeffer has clarified those comments.
He’s an arrogant jerk
Meh. Pretty clear sign of backtracking.
“There’s nothing wrong with being average in the NHL,” Pfeffer said. “An average NHLer is worth a heck of a lot and that’s what Shea Weber is.”
Pfeffer made a mistake here – and his analytics/stats training is no better than mine (stats degree), so I feel like I can correct him with some confidence. He even corrected himself, which I understand.
Weber is declining and he is worse than Subban. But he’s not average, he’s still a very good player. Analytics advised not to do the trade, and that is correct. But again – that doesn’t mean Weber is terrible. There are aspects of his game that the numbers aren’t explaining well.
Josi, for example, owes a lot to him. Nashville’s former head scout told me this. And the stars on the other team – Kane, Backes, Seguin – players who see a lot of him, changed their attitude when he was on the ice. He has a ‘fear factor’.
The ‘Josi factor’ is also being portrayed as a negative on his analytics. That without Josi he’s nothing. But the opposite is true. Weber can play Weber’s game now without constraint. Without adapting to another star on the blue line.
Weber is still a 50-point defenseman, 18-goal scorer. He’s no Subban, but he’s still great.
With all due respect, stats and analytics will never provide you a full picture on a player in a SPORTS TEAM. Emphasis here is on the team. Yes I like PK, yes I know he is on his prime, but do analytics explain how his teammates perceive him, Does he “irritate” a few on the team by his antics? Most players like him as a person but they all agree that he is loud and likes to put on a show. With nice prospects in D such as Beaulieu, Juulsen and Segachev, is he really more qualified that Weber to mentor, or mold them into future top pairing D?? My point is Analytics should provide an extra edge when comparing players, however it should never be used solely. We are not talking about singles Tennis here.
It was definitely a factor for Montreal.
Did you just lump in Montreal with those other teams? They are not even close to being much better than New York or Ottawa
Absolutely. We can agree to disagree.
Good luck with that
New York is going downhill quickly. Ottawa not close to Montreal, a team that was first in the entire NHL 25 games in last year and now get their MVP goalie back. But, you can hang onto your outdated notions for as long as you like Steve. Indeed – good luck with that.
I have been trying to wrap my head around Montreal. Price is an incredible wild card in the equation but I’m not certain we can speak to them in the same breath as say a Was & TB, or Pit & I don’t want to slight Pit but I’m still in shock as to what they accomplished with that D. I would add Flo, NYI even the Rangers still before I slot in Montreal. They should be a solid playoff contender but not in the cup contender status of those other 6 teams for me.
Again Price being the wild card. If he is any where near the Price of 2014-15 all bets are off.
I’ll willing to plant my flag at this point with Montreal being a top-four team in the East.
I’ll plant my flag beside yours!
I wish you guys were my bookie. I’d like to see those odds. Ha-ha!
I have Montreal 7th currently in the east by conference standings but the start of the season is a long way off.
If Price and Gallagher are healthy this season and Radulov and perform to expectations, Montreal could soar up the standings this year. I’m not a fan of the Subban trade, but Weber is still a Top 20 D despite his age.
Pfeffer is going to get paid when Weber craps the bed this year! Or he’s gonna not get hired at all if Weber goes strong the next 5 years. That’s a lot riding on one person’s career!
Prediction: he gets paid. Because Subban gets 67 points and a career year, while Weber does well with 51 points and becomes a fine leader and helps in other areas. But the difference in offense and defense (Corsi and CorsiRel will show) will still make it a big enough gap that Pfeffer will have impressed.
I’m not sure there is a need for an advanced statistician within organizations in the Pfeffer mold. A lot of them were brought in initially to provide a product and educate others in the front office. Catch them up to speed with the fundamentals, per se. Now that Montreal, in this case, has an idea of what they should be looking at and how to track and incorporate the statistics, they can have their own statistician take care of the analytics. I could be completely wrong, but I’m not sure the demand is that high, and it isn’t like we’re talking about rocket science stuff here.
It’s all just very interesting.
I tend to agree. There is a use for an analytics department of two or three people. But the team has to buy into it and consider their recommendations just as much as they would that of a scout. If they can’t buy in, then they shouldn’t waste their time.
In the case of Montreal, I’m sure cap reasons played a role too ($2 million in annual savings, Subban’s contract was mostly untradeable)
Until Marleau moves on the inn is full in SJ. There certainly isn’t room in the top 9 currently baring a trade or injury. Meier will have to bide his time & wait for an opening, especially with the addition of Boedker.
Hertl, Thornton, Pavelski.
Donskoi, Couture, Boedker.
Karlsson, Marleau, Ward.
Nieto, Tierny, Wingels.
I’m not sure Karlsson is a top-nine lock, and Kurz, in the linked article, speculated the potential lines as:
Meier-Thornton-Pavelski
Donskoi-Couture-Boedker
Marleau-Hertl-Ward
The rest
The business side of hockey comes into play. The only player that can clear waivers is Tierny. Other than Haley; who’s inconsequential, none of the remaining players are making it through waivers.
If & when Meier plays next season it will be once injures hit or a trade opens a spot.
As I like to say. “There is always room at the top.” The odds just don’t favor such. Very few players just step into the NHL as 18 or 19 year olds especially on a team that just went to the cup final & has been a strong as SJ historicly. They get a cup of coffee, go down learn a little start to come back as injuries warrant & by the all-star break opportunities open up & their careers commence in some way.
Is Meier an exception? Sure there is a distinct possibility of such but was Goldobin any different & he got his 9 game cup of coffee when the dust settled last season. Some teams just take the right approach in developing prospects because they can. SJ is just such a team & Wilson is old school.
There are all kinds of variables, but Kurz does have an inside track, and I’m not viewing/billing Meier as anything more than a late-round flier.
Yeah, Karlsson isn’t a top nine lock. In fact, the Sharks would have no problem putting him in the press box if a kid comes in and outplays him.
Agreed. Room at the top.
Zibanejad for Brassard is all about money for Ottawa. They get cost certainty for the next 3 years. Brassard dings the cap at 5 for the next 3 but will only be paid 3, 3.5 & 3.5 by Ottawa with NYR having just paid Brassard’s 2 mil bonus for this season. Zibanejad is just scratching the surface of his potential. He will be a far better player in 2 years than Brassard ever was he is as good now & is just a kid. His adjustment time in NYR will be a blip. 25 goals & 60 points in a walk. His contract after next season is jumping significantly. Again a money issue for Ottawa. Brassard will be the same player he was in NYR no real change.
Kreider got to the NHL late having played 3 years of college hockey & starting his career in the minors. Being a monster forward he takes longer to develop as well. Still stuck behind a few players but Nash will be gone soon, if not in trade, he could quite possibly be bought out next summer if not selected in the expansion draft. Kreider will step up to 25 goals & 50 to 55 points next season. His break through will come in 2017-18, he should hit darn close to 30 goals & 65 to 70 points as NYR’s #1 LW when Nash is gone.
Zibanejad & Kreider have a ton in common from a development perspective. The roster for both players over the last 2 years has been opening up for them to take on more responsibility & ice time, Zibanejad sooner than Kreider due to Ottawa’s internal cap & moving players out as monies prevented them from being retained.
When you say, Kreider’s offensive years are nearing an end at 25, do you mean nearing an end for another 5 years?
Cause yeah thats nearing an end for sure.
In most cases, players are peaking between 22 and 26.
Prime starts at 26 and runs to 29 or 30. It used to be 28 to 31, but the salary cap (and better training) is moving this age down a little. But not as much as you’re saying.
Power forwards start later. When Kreider was a rookie I said don’t even look at him until he’s 26. I’ve held onto Kreider for two years (got him cheap mid-2014/15) for this year or next. My target for him has always been 2016-17 or 2017-18. I expected little of him until then.
In most cases, players are still in the AHL at 22 and 23.
Sorry, not trying to bust your balls. I just disagree with you on this one. I had no expectations for Kreider last year. Now I finally have some because he’s reaching the age where I felt it would happen.
All good.
Were Nash injured long-term, traded, or bought out (if possible), you’d have to think Kreider would experience a significant increase in icetime and production. NYR signing Kevin Hayes also didn’t help Kreider, as it gave the forward corps more scoring options and may have reduced his PP icetime somewhat as Hayes averaged 1:30 per game last year. I would have expected Kreider to be a mainstay on the 1st unit given his size in front of the net. He seems like the kind of player that could knock in 5 or 6 ugly PPG from the crease to up his numbers somewhat.
I’m on exactly the same time line. Simply as it follows my model for development that shows just below an 80% success rate. I should note that it is in decline. There is a trend forming where some players are now taking longer to breakthrough. Like a B. Schenn. Sample size is still to small to declare as fact but trend is holding.
The basics are this simple. 200 games to reach breakthrough for fowards, 400 games for Dman & monster forwards; 6’3″ & above or over 225 lbs. & no inally shorter; see Zibanejad. Age does play a factor but not as much as you would think. Older players coming out of college or Europe still follow the same basic math but can post better #’s sooner even with limited opportunities. Following icetime trends & contracts is essntial in determining exactly when it will happen as is the ever important eye test.when a player is going to see the right quantity & quality of icetime factors huge. Most players have to bide their time. Not all as bad teams allow for better quantity & quality sooner most don’t you pay your dues & earn your opportunity.
I have decades of success playing my system in any format & there is over a 20% variance or exceptions to the rule to either side of the formula & that seperates the winners from the losers. If you can’t grasp who might succeed & who might fail your doomed. It’s not necessarily about getting the best prospect but the best prospect with a chance to play. In my fantasy leagues everyone is prospect crazed with a few rare exceptions & they over pay years to soon. I just want a prospect long enough to sell him over value. Give me your Brouwers, Turris’s of the world & all your picks. In my fantasy leagues consistency which comes with age is a huge dividend. Ka ching.
I consume analytics, you have to follow them & I have for years. It’s a reference & just part of the whole picture. What I have a serious issue with is how the stats are accumulated. The NHL can’t get the easy stuff correlated & recorded properly, hits, give aways, shots, etc & the margin of error is significant. Go sit in the upper bowls of arenas & watch the NHL officials crews; you need to get into the black aces section, Some have spotters, some don’t, depending upon what their tracking. It’s by no means an exact science & the margin for error extreme. Far to many subjective decisions being made.
Until they tag players skates so we know who was or wasn’t on the ice & where it’s almost meaningless to me & you can extrapolate out a player based on old world stats just as easily. Nor can you ever replace the eye test which also plays a significant role in determining what a player is or isn’t. All teams revue film following games & break down what went right & what went wrong when another team scores. A player not picking up his assignment may lead to a goal but he’s really the only player at fault but his teammates are being marked accordingly in both old world & analytics.
I would ask everyone to watch 1 NHL game & track 3 things. Shots on goal, hits & give aways. Then compare your #’s to the NHL’s. You’ll be shocked at the disparity.
I’m surprised to see little mention of Hull being Brassard’s hometown figuring into the Sens’ thinking. He also played for, and excelled under Guy Boucher in junior.
It was mentioned in Ian’s article, I believe. It’s not overly fantasy relevant in my books.